Talk:Kotoamatsukami
Itachi as a user round 2 Really dude? A couple of IPs try to help and just because you disagree with them you block all IPs from editing the page calling it vandalism? The jutsu was cast in its most important instance plotwise. A chapter is named after it. Yet just because it doesn't fit your own narrow definition of what counts as "usage" you're not gonna call the guy who embedded it as a user? (And call everyone who does a vandal?) Foo used a puppet to cast his Mind Transfer Puppet Curse. So is he not the user of that technique? I know this is far from canon but even the folks at Crunchyrollhttp://www.crunchyroll.com/naruto-shippuden/episode-299-the-acknowledged-one-615357 realized this and wrote, "Itachi *uses* the ultimate genjutsu technique Koto Amatsukami to free himself..." Did Shisui not bequeath the eye to him making him a de facto user? Just because he didn't put it in his socket (gross) while preparing the jutsu doesn't mean he didn't use it. If you're still so stubborn about your semantics, why don't you create a workaround to say "using his crow" or something like that, like you've done with the Third Kazekage's techniques for Sasori? (talk), also 141.0.8.158, 15:20, May 17, 2013 (UTC) :It seems to me to be similar application as Transcription Seal: Amaterasu. — SimAnt 19:24, May 17, 2013 (UTC) ::Exactly. Thank you. Now could you revert it/unlock the article for crying out loud? 141.0.8.158 03:11, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :::First of all, the technique's importance, named chapter or no is of no concern to us in listing Itachi as a user, in fact that's a flawed line of reasoning in any case. Itachi never used this technique, Itachi used whichever techniques it was to rig the genjutsu and inscribe the command into it. If he had used Kotoamatsukami to do any of those, it would've been useless to him in present day. The crow didn't use it either, all it did was fly out of Naruto's mouth and the eye did the rest.--Cerez365™ (talk) 03:45, May 18, 2013 (UTC) ::::So then tell me this: did Foo not use his Mind Transfer Puppet Curse because he merely "rigged" a puppet to activate the jutsu when attacked? Did Sasori not use the Iron Sand techniques because he was merely using the Puppet technique to make the Sandaime perform the hand signs? Just because the rigging and the jutsu actually taking effect happened at different times doesn't mean that the rigging was some distinct technique. If you have to be that pedantic, let's make a compromise and add "Transcribed into Crow's eye" or something like that. ::::And what do you say about Crunchyroll's description? You may say, "That's not canon!" But they have good reason to have written that, which is this: "戦局を変える'イタチの術' ナンバー５５０:〝別天神〟"chapter 550, page 1, "Senkyoku o kaeru Itachi no jutsu Nambaa 550: "Kotoamatsukami"", "Itachi's technique which changes the course of war. Number 550: "Kotoamatsukami"" Who in their right mind would not add a technique that is labeled in the manga as "Itachi's jutsu" to his list of techniques? (talk) 08:51, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :Good Point. Let's add Itachi as a user.JaZZBaND (talk) 12:36, May 18, 2013 (UTC) ::First off, "no links ಠ_ಠ" Fū technique incorporates the technique itself with a condition of someone attacking the puppet. The entire thing is the Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique not just the rigging of the puppet else it would just be the clan's regular Mind Body Switch Technique. Puppets are tools for use none of which would be possible without chakra from the user, no matter how human the puppet is. As for Crunchyroll, I'm sorry but I fail to see its bearing in any of this, all they do is animate the manga, they carry no weight in anything in this discussion. Again you seem to be putting too much emphasis on the fact that Kotoamatsukami is a titular technique and somehow that means it deserves to have Itachi as a user. Persons who have actually used the technique are listed in the infobox and the more unique cases (yes including the crow) are detailed in the article and left up to Kishimoto to give us the say so on listing them as users. At least that's how I remember it being decided for the last umpteenth time we discussed this.--Cerez365™ (talk) 13:11, May 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Itachi isn't a user, he just had Shisui's eye in a crow that was his summon, not in his sockets.--Elveonora (talk) 13:26, May 18, 2013 (UTC) Ok allow me to apologize for my earlier comment. I was just trying to end this conversation. But, one thing I did believe earlier in time, was that we could possibly give Itachi the Time-Release Technique. Itachi's actions and past fit the criteria and its description. Don't you all agree?JaZZBaND (talk) 13:48, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :No need to canonize a movie technique--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :Sucker. (talk) 14:44, May 18, 2013 (UTC) I'll admit your point about Fū's jutsu. It is different. As for the chakra for the genjutsu, if it did not come from Itachi, Naruto or the crow itself, where did it come from? Indeed puppets are tools. But animals (summoned or otherwise) are tools too according to Hayate Gekko. "Kotoamatsukami is a titular technique and somehow that means it deserves to have Itachi as a user" "Somehow"? I think you hardly read anything I wrote after the word "Crunchroll" except the fact that I had a link in there. Find yourself a copy of chapter 550 and READ it! Kishimoto has already given the say so. What part of "Itachi no jutsu : Kotoamatsukami" do you not understand? Not to mention Itachi saying, "I''' put '''my new genjutsu on top of this enemy's technique." (The "かけた", "kaketa" on page 8 imples the first person.) I doubt that you'll relent even if it's listed in the next databook. (talk) 14:44, May 18, 2013 (UTC) The way I view it currently is the same way Itachi programmed Sasuke's sharingan to use an Amaterasu against Tobi when the latter used his sharingan (The Transcription Seal). After all, the genjutsu was Shisui's technique, and the eye that used it was Shisui's. There's no reason to list Itachi, since all he did was program it (Shisui's sharingan) to do something. And as far as the translations one thinks they may find, while possible, every other translation I've seen refers to "rigged", and never they it was his technique or anything of that nature. In fact, after mentioning what happened, he goes on to say it's Shisui's technique, not his. Though, by proxy, one could argue who can "use" the technique, since he made it happen, but that's just feeding speculation. -- (talk) 20:24, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :"Rigged" is a pretty accurate translation of "細工", "saiku", but he's talking about the crow coming out, not the jutsu itself. Look at the box just above it. Your favorite translation might say, "I layered a new genjutsu on top of the enemy jutsu." He doesn't say anything like "transcribe", he just says, "ueni kaketa", "put on top of". But forget about whether he used it or not at all. He may have used a transcription seal, it may even be related to the time-release technique like the other person said. That would be speculation. What is not speculation is the fact that it is "Itachi's technique". Go back and read PAGE 1. (how many times do I have to say this?) It does not say "Shisui's technique", it says "Itachi's technique" and right below it "Kotoamatsukami". How are you people missing this? (talk) 04:23, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :As far as translation goes, you don't need to "find" a translation. Just google "naruto raw 550" and go to the 3rd or 4th result. You can see clearly what I mean. If you have no clue about Japanese, understanding the meaning of the kanji is going to be difficult. But the katakana and hiragana are straightforward. Just look up a katakana table on Wikipedia or something and you should be good. Itachi's name is written in katakana and if you've watched any bit of the English-subtitled anime, you should know what "の", "no" means! "術" is "jutsu". (talk) 04:36, May 19, 2013 (UTC) ::Because that's completely irrelevant, and it was used with Shisui's eye, of which is not attached to Itachi like it is Danzo -- that's how we're "missing" it. The name of the chapter is not "Itachi's..." either, it is simply 'Kotoamatsukami". So you're also mistaken, there. He also says that he embedded the command "Protect Konoha" in the eye, then the eye into the Crow. If you want to be really technical, the Crow casts it via the eye. Now, whether or not Itachi somehow rigged, yes rigged (I was referring to the eye, though I know rigged was used for the crow, the eye to use the technique is open for discussion, but he, himself, does not use it.--Taynio (talk) 15:51, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :::Somebody said no links, but you guys seem to be blind even with links. Anyway, fair use. What technique do you think was labeled "Itachi's jutsu" here, then? -Karunyan (talk), also 141.0.*.*, 02:23, May 22, 2013 (UTC) ::::And what line of reasoning is "it's Shisui's eye so it can't be Itachi's" anyway? Is the Samehada not Killer Bee's weapon coz he never merged with it? And comparing it to saying Orochimaru used Wood Style is also absurd because Yamato is not a mere tool of war like the crow or the eye. (talk) 04:16, May 23, 2013 (UTC) I changed the section title so as not to conflict with any potential links the section above with the same name. Regarding the topic, I maintain what I said in that other section. Itachi may have set the effect of the technique, rigging in the eye, but it's still not his eye. The only way I could consider Itachi as a user of this was if he had used it with his own eye, or if he had used it after implanting Shisui's eye. Omnibender - Talk - 23:40, May 23, 2013 (UTC) :You people seem to be much more interested in links and pictures than in READING what anyone has written above. I too maintain my position. Why is everybody so obsessed about the "implanting" of eyes? Again I say, is Killer Bee not the user of Samehada because he never merges with it? Anything in Itachi's possession is "his eye". And again, the manga says, "Itachi's jutsu which changes the course of war", not "Shisui's jutsu which changes the course of war". (talk) 04:45, May 24, 2013 (UTC) ::By your logic, at least what you've most recently said, the Itachi still wouldn't be listed as a user of Kotoamatsukami but Shisui's eye would be listed as a tool, not a user of the technique. Let's say that Itachi never had to use the eye on himself, would you then still consider Itachi a user? Again I submit to you, we're not listing Itachi as a user of the technique, he used whatever technique it was to rig the eye and what have view. I don't see that changing any time soon until the databook is released.--Cerez365™ (talk) 14:24, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :::My answer to your question would depend on what Kishimoto says if and when it (presumably) takes effect on Sasuke. If he says "Naruto no jutsu", Naruto used it. If he says "Itachi no jutsu", Itachi used it. There's no need to wait for the databook. Kishimoto has already written that it's "Itachi's jutsu". You don't need to "submit to me" anything. Just take a look at the picture above and tell me what he refers to as "Itachi's jutsu" there. Thank you. (talk) 15:59, May 24, 2013 (UTC) When a man gives a kid a gun and that kid kills that man with that gun, was the user of the gun the man or the kid? Now, that might be a bit weird for an example, but it's the same with Kotoamatsukami. Seelentau 愛議 15:06, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :With the man making the arrangements that the gun would fire on its own.--'~ UltimateSupreme' 15:24, May 24, 2013 (UTC) ::That's like asking if the Tsarnaevs used the pressure cooker bombs. Of course they did, and if the man made the arrangements, sure he did. (talk) 15:59, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :::Yeah, so Naruto is a user of chakra chains cause ghost Kushina did them through him and he also can use Katon as it has been done in an anime filler while he was unconscious. EDIT: and Jiraiya is a user of Amaterasu since he sealed it into a scroll that was held in his possession and Ten-Ten is definitely a Katon user cause of Exploding Dragon Strike and Shikamaru used a scroll full of water, thus Suiton--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, May 24, 2013 (UTC) ::::You're taking the words, "Itachi's technique" too literal there. It is very possible that Itachi may be listed as a user in the databook, but until then, what I'm assuming is the majority, doesn't believe it should be added to his list of techniques. Also, please do not remove semi-colon from the image, everyone here has the ability to click on links. A simple referencing of the image would've sufficed as well.--Cerez365™ (talk) 16:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :::::I see you're relenting a little bit. I'll wait until you're fully convinced. Although, majority of what? We're not taking a vote here. I'm trying to convince you guys and when someone doesn't reply to any of my points (I've had only two points), I take them as either convinced or having nothing to say in opposition. If you do wanna take a vote, I'm ready for it. You know the protocols here, you start it. It's a (damn my impulsive nature to correct everyone) colon, not a semi-colon:) Sorry about the image but I had to make sure you saw it. (talk) 17:15, May 24, 2013 (UTC) ::::No, Kushina is the user of chakra chains though she used them through him (just like Itachi and the crow). Tenten and Shikamaru are users of the Scroll Summoning Technique much like Naruto's Shadow Clone Summoning Scroll. I'm not sure about Jiraiya, but if he had figured out a way to use Amaterasu in battle somehow, I'd say he's a user. Also, can you be more specific about the "anime filler"? (talk) 17:15, May 24, 2013 (UTC) Yeah, just like Itachi hasn't used Kotoamatsukami, he just scripted it so the eye responds to his eyes and uses itself--Elveonora (talk) 17:28, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :And that's not "usage"? Though that's not my main point. My main two points have been 1) what Itachi himself said directly referencing the genjutsu, "I put my new genjutsu on top of this enemy's technique." and 2) what Kishimoto says in calling Kotoamatsukami, "Itachi no jutsu". (talk) 17:45, May 24, 2013 (UTC) ::His new genjutsu referred to his command "protect Konoha" he scripted the eye with. If we listed Itachi as a user of Kotoamatsukami, we would have to list Curse Mark users as Sages by similar logic. Itachi couldn't use the technique himself as the eye wasn't in his eye socket. Makes me recall a similar topic about the crow, it was just a container, so not a user as well.--Elveonora (talk) 21:30, May 24, 2013 (UTC) :::I'm was never absolute in my view. I understand that Kishimoto might add him as I user. I simply believe that the way we have it now, is most accurate in my opinion.--Cerez365™ (talk) 14:16, May 25, 2013 (UTC) ::::I'm gonna backpedal a little bit myself. What about my earlier suggestion that we list Itachi as a user, but qualify it with something like "Transcribed into Crow's eye"? Like it's done for Sasori's Iron Sand techniques. If your opinion is too strong even for that, you said Shisui's eye could be listed as a tool. How do you propose that should be done? (talk) 04:40, May 27, 2013 (UTC) :::"Protect Konoha" is just another instance of Kotoamatsukami much like Danzo's "Nominate me as leader of the Ninja Alliance". I don't understand your Curse Mark comparison, probably because I'm not up to date with the manga. I've played Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 though, so I can understand any analogy you bring up up to Naruto and Bee's first fight with the fake Madara. (Please don't take revenge by spoiling anything after that!) How do you know that he can't "use" a technique simply because he didn't implant the eye? For argument's sake, if he had not set any trigger for the jutsu and instead simply made it go off immediately (while holding it in his hand or whatever) would you consider that "usage"? (talk) 15:37, May 26, 2013 (UTC) ::::The way I read it, and the word usage I've seen, it was that Itachi embedded the command "Protect Konoha" as a genjutsu into the eye, which made the eye use the technique upon seeing his Mangekyou Sharingan. I never see anything directly stating he used it, but going out of his way to mention how he embedded, etc. I may be wrong as I'm quite sick currently (and therefore very loopy), but it's how I've always viewed the situation. As for the Curse Seal mark, I believe it was mentioned because it was based on and used Senjutsu chakra (said by Orochimaru and those around him).--Taynio (talk) 17:36, May 26, 2013 (UTC) @Anon141, yes. Usage through a tool, but not as a technique--Elveonora (talk) 19:01, May 26, 2013 (UTC) Parent Jutsu-Genjutsu:Sharingan Shoud we add Genjutsu: Sharingan as a parent jutsu to this jutsu? Since it is a Sharingan-related Genjutsu (and I think we shoud do this thing to every Sharingan Genjutsu.) So, agreed?--Omojuze (talk) 12:47, July 6, 2013 (UTC) they are completely diffrent techniques, the simple fact that they are both genjutsu cast by the sharingan is not nearly enough to say that they are related jutsu.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 13:57, July 6, 2013 (UTC) One more proof that this is "Itachi's" jutsu OK this is probably not gonna change consensus or anything but it is new and I have got to put this in for the record. Not only does the manga describe this as "イタチの術", but in the anime, Kabuto says "自分の幻術", "one's own genjutsu" referring to Itachi. Here's what he says in full: "さすがうちはイタチだよね. まさか, 穢土転生の術に自分の幻術を上書きするなんて..." and Crunchyroll's English translation: "I must hand it to you Itachi Uchiha. Imagine, overwriting the Reanimation Jutsu with your genjutsu..." So is this enough to add this to his jutsu list or is it gonna take another databook for you guys to stop saying "We can't add it coz Itachi never used it!"? --Karunyan (talk) 06:59, October 11, 2013 (UTC) Different versions (Kamui-like)? Hello. I ran into this edit, and while it was reverted right away, I do think that it deserves at least a trivia mention. The right eye can remotely control people's minds real-time, the left can give orders that the victim will follow even after the technique is cast. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, but what do you think?-- [[User:JOA20|'JOA']]''20'' 21:41, October 26, 2014 (UTC) :I think while plausible, unless explicitly stated, we shouldn't speculate that what one eye did couldn't be done by the other. Maybe note somehow which eye was used to do what: eg "with Shisui's right eye Danzō controlled Mifune etc" but I couldn't agree with anything beyond that point really.--Cerez365™ (talk) 22:50, October 26, 2014 (UTC) Itachi's Crow I am aware that others were hesistant to add Itachi as a user, and I share the same sentiments, but I have a question to ask: What is the exact reason that Itachi's Crow isn't listed as a user of this technique? It's listed as having the Sharingan and Mangekyō Sharingan in its article, yet isn't listed as a user of the technique derived from the eye? 02:14, April 8, 2015 (UTC) :Previous discussion. Jacce | Talk | 03:39, April 8, 2015 (UTC) ::Ah, thank you, good sir. Judging from that, this edit, and the others that succeed it, Itachi's Crow being listed as a user seems to give Itachi more credibility as a user. 04:08, April 8, 2015 (UTC) Does this use eye contact? I was told that Koto needs eye contact to be able to use are there any feats or Kishi statements that state otherwise? LoneNinja (talk) 15:01, October 28, 2015 (UTC) :Doesn't require eye contact. Omnibender - Talk - 23:42, October 29, 2015 (UTC) Eye Contact again Danzo Shimura used this technique without eye contact. But when programmed by Itachi, it specifically needed eye contact with his eyes.--Caseather (talk) 05:16, December 20, 2015 (UTC) :And not-Itachi's use was because he had to rig Shisui's eye. The signal that activated the crow for it to be used was his eyes. It's basically Transcription Seal: Kotoamatsukami. Omnibender - Talk - 05:49, December 20, 2015 (UTC) ::That's right, I should also add that the databook page is the source this statement comes from. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 17:22, December 20, 2015 (UTC) Incorrect Info Danzo intended to use Kotoamatsukami a second time against "Madara" which is why he didn't want to use it at the end of his fight with Sasuke. When he told the Kage that he could only use it once a day he was lying. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:52, May 9, 2016 (UTC) :When did he say he wanted to use it against "Madara"? Omnibender - Talk - 22:49, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::He thinks it to himself in chapter 480. But did he ever say he can use it only once per day? I've seen translations where he just says he can't use it that many times in one day.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:15, May 9, 2016 (UTC) :::I don't know if it's a scanlation issue, but I just read chapter 480, and found nothing about Danzo thinking about using it against "Madara". The only thing I saw in that chapter is "Madara" wondering if Danzo will waste Shisui's eye with another Izanagi or use Kotoamatsukami, but he never specifies on who. The once a day limit was mentioned by Danzo himself, after Ao exposed him using it on Mifune. Omnibender - Talk - 23:53, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::::Just checked. Viz has him say he wants to control "Madara" on the same page where Obito wonders whether he'll use the eye for Izanagi. They also have him say "it's not a jutsu that I can use many times in a day" in chapter 461. Unless both were mistranslations, he appears to be able to use it more than once. Though I've definitely seen the 461 thing translated as only once per day in other places, so not sure how reliable that is.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:33, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::::Found Danzo thinking it in a scanlation. The only other source I recall them saying anything about the cooldown is when Itachi destroys the other eye after defeating Nagato, but I think it was just "you can use it only once a decade, unless you have Hashirama's chakra". I think this is a case we'd need the raws. Omnibender - Talk - 00:42, May 10, 2016 (UTC) Koto usage Shisui is only a few years older than Itachi, and awakened his Mangekyo right after the 3rd War ended. So the whole 10 year stuff only applies to the crow, especially since not only is it not a human being Shinobi, but it is not the original owner of the eye. QuakingStar (talk) 02:41, January 10, 2017 (UTC)